VIDEOFullInterviewBothToddandMandi102324
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[00:00:00] All right. Welcome. So are you struggling with the effects of trauma or addiction? And if so, then you're in the right place. Thank you, Todd, for joining us. And thank you to those who are watching or listening today. I'm interviewing Todd McLaughlin from Native Yoga Center in Florida, and we're going to be discussing how Ashtanga Yoga can help with healing from trauma and addiction.
My name is Mandy Gardner. I'm the founder of Holistic Evolution Shala. I'm an Ashtanga yoga teacher as well as a DBT skills coach. My mission is to help support women who are recovering from trauma with education and skills so that they can stay calm, overcome these addictive behaviors and build supportive relationships.
So Todd, let's get into your background and experience first. Can you share a little bit about [00:01:00] your journey and what first inspired you to start practicing and teaching yoga? And what's your experience with Ashtanga? First, yes, I'd be happy to answer that and thank you so much, Andy, for having me on.
I really appreciate it. I'm very passionate about yoga. And I got started with yoga when I was, right around like senior and high school and like my first year going off to school to college.
And it was an evolution from that point to where I got involved in a stronger yoga. And so I got drawn toward it. And then I, my wife and I, we had done a Bikram yoga teacher training. We were co owning a Bikram yoga studio in San Diego in a town called Mira Mesa. And at that point, I had met somebody that was practicing Ashtanga yoga.
And I'd heard about it. My first hearing of it [00:02:00] was it reminded him of surfing. And I like to surf. So that caught my attention right away. And he said, because you're linking the movement with the breath and it puts you like in a flow state, that reminded him of what it feels like to be in that immediate sort of riding wave kind of state of mind.
And so right away I thought, that sounds incredible. I got to try that out. And, at that point I purchased, David Swenson's VHS. This is in, when is this? 2000 and 2001, 2002. And, so at that point said to my wife, Tamara, I let's go to India and go practice with the top of Joyce and my sore.
And so we were very green. Even if you get what I found is that even though I became very proficient in one style of yoga, like Bikram yoga, that kind of Crossing over to another style is like you could get really good at tap dancing But if you go to the Juilliard theater to learn ballet, it's a completely different skill [00:03:00] set we were very green when we went to my sore and practice and it was just an incredible eye opening experience for me and It really lit me up for passionate about Ashtanga yoga.
And then there's a lot happened from there till now, but that's a little bit about how I got into it. I love that you've been to Mysore with your wife so long ago. That's definitely a goal of mine to get there.
So what is the philosophy behind Native Yoga Center and how does it reflect your own beliefs about yoga and healing? When we were running the yoga studio in San Diego, Bikram as a person. So there's a man named Bikram Chowdhury.
A lot of people have heard of him because he made hot yoga famous. He bailed out of the U S because of the amount of lawsuits against him for both sexual misconduct and other reasons.
So he did not really live up to the yogic ideal that I had in my mind of what yoga could be and can be and [00:04:00] how it should be, how it can be represented. And when we went to India. I still had this kind of I really want to find a guru. I really want to find a teacher that I resonate with, that I feel comfortable practicing with that.
I, when I was with Bikram, he would always say and do things that always made me cringe a little bit. And a lot of the philosophy around that group of practitioners was, it's not about the man, it's about the yoga. So just focus on the yoga and just try to ignore the man.
I couldn't do that. I just, I couldn't, I tried, couldn't do it. And I really, I did fall in love with the vibe in India and in Mysore. When we returned back to, California, this is prior to all this stuff unraveling with Mr. Chowdhury, with Bikram. And I had this feeling of oh my gosh, this guy's going to go down because it was very obvious to me.
I was close. Close to his group in the sense that I would drive up to LA every Friday and practice the advanced class [00:05:00] with Bikram and his teacher Rajesh, his wife Rajeshree, and there was a woman named Amy Cleaves and that whole crew that was involved in that group. And as I would watch his actions, I knew this isn't gonna last, that something's gonna fall apart.
And so I felt like if I have his name on my sign, I'm a representative of that. It made me feel not comfortable with that. Bikram was trying to put together like a franchise. And for me, when I got involved in yoga, franchised yoga didn't really fall into what I wanted. I wanted to have more of an authentic experience.
I did come into yoga from the angle of wanting to seek liberation or, freedom from suffering, which is a big endeavor, but that was my goal. I love the physical. I love the asana. Absolutely. It is so fun and exciting and thrilling. I'm big fan of it, but I really was curious [00:06:00] about the philosophical and more of the ethical elements in yoga.
So that. I think set the stage for when my wife and I was born and raised here in Palm Beach County in Florida. And, so my parents were still living here and at that time I had corralled my wife to agree to move back to Florida and we wanted to open a yoga studio that was not under a franchise umbrella.
That was our own creation. In the sense of we had to get the ball rolling on our own, we couldn't rely on the network of a franchise to get that momentum going. So it was a huge challenge and it was scary. But we did it and we've been in this location now, it'll be 19 years in April in the same location.
That's 19 years. That's quite a feat. Thank you so much. And I think when I really boiled down and dig down into what is my intention and goal for our yoga [00:07:00] studio? I wanted to create a space that people felt comfortable coming into and they would be able to experience true transformation.
Like to actually, if someone was recovering from addiction or from trauma that I believe yoga has an incredible capacity to be one of the main tools and the toolbox for This process. And so that was really my goal. I had other people that were like really business orientated that were like, Todd, you should franchise and you should open multiple locations and scale your business.
I was more interested in creating one spot that actually could potentially achieve that goal. And I do feel like we've been able to do that. I honestly do. I feel like we've been able to create a space that's comfortable and safe that people can practice and, [00:08:00] benefit from.
Yoga, so that's really at the core of our main values for the inception of our studio. That's beautiful Thank you so much for sharing all of that. When the goal of the studio is to franchise a lot of times doing business and making money is not wrong, right?
But it's a different intention versus creating a space or a community, right? It's just a very different intention. And I can imagine with your space being open for 19 years, you have quite the community of people who, they get to come and they know each other in a very different way.
Community is so great right like even like from the setting of say a mysore style class where there's really no talking going on and From the instruction side we might you know, there's conversation or we can talk and communicate But for the majority of the time the class is quiet and so we'll have students that really never have conversation but have a relationship and Even though they, cause they just see each other.
And I feel that [00:09:00] too, when I go and practice in a Mysore room or I've been involved in other studios where, I could just go in, I could do my practice, not even converse with anyone, but really feel like I was a part of a community. And I think that's a really fascinating aspect of the Ashtanga tradition.
And that is something that was probably the biggest light bulb that went off for me when I saw the Mysore room in India, because I'd been, I came from a room that was. An extremely hot room where this person would stand on a stage with a microphone and kind of berate you and yell, right?
Do this. Come on, push him, lift him, kick him dah. And it was very like an auctioneer. And you walk in so quiet. And all you hear is breathing and you can feel the humidity and you can see the sweat glistening and you can see the muscles and the focus and the intensity.
I was like, Whoa, what is going on in here? This is next level. So that for me was a game changer. And why I'm still, I feel, I taught my sort of [00:10:00] class this morning and I teach my sore, we have a six day a week, a stronger program in the morning. I keep it going and I think it just comes, that definitely was the main spark for my fire.
Anytime personally, like when I reflect on and I'll definitely have days where I'm like, oh man, this is so hard because it's not always busy. Ashtanga is a tricky model from the business side, to be able to pay your rent. It's a demanding method.
So I've changed a lot in the way that I approach it. And I'm really on a user friendly. Mode right now, I'm very, into create like still staying with the routine of Ashtanga, but trying to make it accessible and to slow it down and let you cow and cat instead of up and down dog. Let them just come and do five straight namaskar A's if they want to be done, they're done.
If I ask someone if they would like some help and they say no, I say, thank you for telling me that's, I really appreciate you being honest with me. The Ashtanga room in India. is intense. it might be like, Oh, I don't know if I can [00:11:00] do that today. And they're like, come on, you can do it.
You can do it. It's really, you get pushed. so I'm turning 51 next week. So my body's changing the way that I'm approaching. It's changing my understanding of my own past trauma and how I treated myself. All that stuff is evolving constantly with my practice.
I think it's a totally valid point, as I've, gotten more and more experience with teaching, the reality is, even though I love Ashtanga and I think it's amazing for me, it's not for everyone and it's not accessible to everyone.
I was trying to, walk my mom through the sun salutation Surya Namaskara A and she, had a really challenging time doing the Chaturanga or even knees, chest, chin, so then, we went to, the cat cow instead, which was way more accessible to her. The reality is that, we have to accommodate for every body.
And recognizing that the ultimate goal is, in the yogic terms, [00:12:00] it's Samadhi, absorption or meditative absorption. So an asana just happens to be. Kind of one of those paths to, to get there. And I think that, so it's important to remember that, Asana isn't The be all in the end all, even though it's such a valuable tool and it's so important,
does your mom still practice with you? She has actually hired a trainer. She's been going to the gym and she's been lifting weights and I've been really proud of her. And so she does stretching and I have shown her, stretches. She's intimidated by the word yoga and so we just refer to it as stretching and that seems more accessible to her.
we showed her the cat cow some wonderful shoulder stretches and pigeon and things like that. And so she is stretching, every day and breathing, which essentially is yoga in its own right.
Yeah. It always makes me feel good when someone, picks up a little something yes. All [00:13:00] right. So how has Ashtanga Yoga impacted your life personally? And have you experienced its healing power in your own journey? Yes, it has impacted me immensely in my journey.
the most important thing I would say, probably breathing. I think that's the one thing nervous system regulation. And I think prior to, Long term yoga practice, obviously at the beginning of yoga practice, something grabs us some part of it.
Is attractive and something pretty quick. Usually. Says this is, I felt like this is good for me. So I think like innately or deep down, I was like, I love this. I feel really good after. So I think that probably attracted me definitely the element of moving and exercising and the sweat and the challenge of the positions and the coordinations of the [00:14:00] vinyasas, the movements from one pose to the next, I think gave me so much information to work with.
The breathing part. I probably put that more secondary and I was more fanatical about the Asana element. And I'd say probably that's been the biggest shift, like a full one 80 flip from now. I really just focus on my breath, try to focus on my breath and let the movement be almost. I let the breath almost be the horse pulling the cart and the cart be the asana.
I know there's this idea of synchronicity that you can't tell which one is pulling the other. Sometimes, vinyasa can be described as breath movement synchronicity, and we can try to coach students that, okay, you're going to inhale when you lift your arms up, try to have your hands touch together, right?
When you're at the end of your in breath, So that you can't really tell if the breath is leading the body or the body is leading the breath. And I think that's [00:15:00] really cool. I love doing it that way too. But now I've been putting a little more emphasis on the breathing and even consciously thinking I'm going to follow my breath.
I'm going to actually put the breath first and let it pull the body along. And that for me has been, I think probably the best part. When I look on the whole of how yoga has impacted my life, And, what element is really making a big difference.
because when I woke up this morning, I thought, okay, today I'm not looking at any news. I'm going to take a break. I can feel my nervous system getting dysregulated. And of course I see my neighbor, he's walking his dog and I'm like, we're not going there. I'm not going there. And of course it went there.
I haven't even made it like 10 minutes out the door and it's already intense. I feel my body now. So I'm way more in touch with how I'm actually feeling. That's probably one of the biggest things because [00:16:00] Now I'm able to look back on my past and recognize that I did experience trauma.
For a long time, I looked back on my life and I did not acknowledge that I did. I just didn't even give myself the space to acknowledge that I went through some difficult situations and I know everybody does.
I know there's a huge scale here. I'm of the theory that everybody's experienced trauma personally, some of it's just a little more impactful than others. So I say all that because. Once I started to even get in touch with the fact of recognizing how I'm feeling and getting Truthful about that and then realizing that with breathing I can Control that a little bit.
Alright, at least I feel like it's empowered me to feel like I have a little bit of a say And if I'm gonna let this drag me down the street, or am I gonna Pull it [00:17:00] along behind me type of thing. So I would say that's probably been the biggest takeaway for me with my strong yoga practice. And if you had when you, as a teacher told me.
Todd, chill out on the Austin apart. You're working way too hard. Relax, start to breathe. And I wouldn't have wanted to hear it. I just wanted to learn second series and third series. And I was just like go. I got to learn more. I got to learn more and I got to go further and deeper.
So it wasn't until. A couple years ago where I started feeling some serious pain, very specifically I ended up rupturing my disc in between my L5 and S1, so I have a spondylolisthesis where my L5 is slipped forward, I used to love backbending. I loved getting pulled into Kapotasana, which is the one in second series where you go backward like a camel, but you take your arms all the way above your head and you grab your heels.
I used to love this, the [00:18:00] Urdhva Dhanurasanas and have somebody grab my hands and pull them in on my legs and try to walk them up. So I was like, God have a lot of, I don't want to say I got a lot of attention, but when you can do some really cool asana tricks, your ego kind of gets flared up because you think, wow, aren't I cool.
I can do these weird new tricks, right? But then when the pain starts to kick in, injury teaches you Another lesson. And that's where I think the breath, like the whole time, the breath was just staring me in the face, but I wasn't, I just didn't quite get it. So I think the beautiful thing about the pain component, Is helping me to change the way that I approach and redirect still be in love with the shangha, but give myself the space to approach it from a slightly different angle,
So that's probably for me, that's been one of [00:19:00] the big takeaways over the years. I think that's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing. I can completely resonate with that. We get older, we have injuries, we have, these things that come up and we have to remind ourselves that it's not about, getting the handstand or getting the crazy posture.
It's, not the goal, right? Yeah. Allowing ourselves to let go of the ego and connecting to the breath is always that thing that's always with us. Agreed. So good. Agreed. All right. Let's move on. In your experience, what makes this Shatanga yoga really effective for people who are healing from trauma and then also addiction?
Coming at it from the angle from experiencing trauma and if we analyze what actually happens when we experience trauma. Usually some lack of safety comes in, like something is [00:20:00] violated on some level we feel violated and there's not like a safe place to go. Sometimes when it's longterm, we live in that state of constant fear that there's not a safe place to be to where you can actually relax.
So from that angle, what I think is really brilliant about Ashtanga, which I know this might not be for everyone, because having the opportunity to work with people with different backgrounds and experiences, it's not like the one size fits all thing, but the fact that there is a system, or there's a sequence, That is determined by the supposed guru.
And so what I think is really cool about that is that now there's like a routine that my mind could rest [00:21:00] knowing what I was about to walk into and what I was about to do. Because sometimes when we're a little bit scattered, not knowing if we're in a safe place or not the sequencing to me felt safe.
It felt like just the fact that I knew what was coming next and I could learn a routine that had consistency and I feel like that consistency and being able to show up every day and repeat it. Gave me this feeling of, now I know like in Buddhist philosophy and or yoga philosophy, there's this idea that the world is constantly changing.
And part of the reason we suffer is because we're attached to things not wanting to change. So I'm aware that probably a deeper aspect of yoga and meditation philosophy would be. Starting to try to be okay with understanding things are changing. But I think when we're healing, having some solid foundation to rest [00:22:00] on is really important just to give us a moment or a year or month or however long of consistency.
And then from that consistency, then we can start to learn nervous system regulation, breath control awareness, which is really where the real power comes in. That would be my answer because I think that consistency is one of the key things. And then I can't speak, I guess if I analyze myself from the addiction side, that's a trickier one because I do have an addictive personality.
And I'm aware of where I can get a little crazy. So I think also having that consistent element really just gave me a mirror to then get a, okay, this is what's going on. I can see myself now. so if someone comes to your class or my class and they have had a traumatizing event and or long event.
And they say Ashtanga just, riles me up [00:23:00] or it just doesn't, I don't like it. I would still say, okay, let's find a method of yoga or a way of approaching it that is a little bit softer but still bringing the consistency piece in. And whether that means even if there's a slightly different sequential movement of the poses, but just the consistency of the lights are at the same consistency in the room.
If I use music or don't use music, I keep that consistent in the room. Even interesting things like, wearing a similar outfit on a regular basis to create consistency in the room. I think putting attention on what can we do to create. an environment where you walk in and you know what's about to occur and doesn't mean you really know It's gonna occur.
I think that's been like a really important part. I think that's played a really critical role personally That was a perfect answer. I really agree. Those set sequence has really [00:24:00] offered so much grounding to my nervous system. And then what it's also helped me personally, and, I do have a history of trauma.
So I've, experienced the symptoms of complex PTSD and having a sequence where I was required to memorize it was totally new. It kept my mind busy on okay, what am I doing next? So we're doing Surya Namaskara and then, okay, now we're doing Pranam Goswami.
So it kept my mind very focused on what I'm doing. I'm breathing. I'm looking. And then as I really. began to memorize it, then it became a really beautiful, like moving meditation because it was, I had this muscle memory that began to develop. And so then the meditation piece was even richer, so for me, it was such a, different experience with the mind in a Mysore room than it was in a traditional class.
When I'm in a traditional led class and I'm listening to the teacher, it was very often, I [00:25:00] would get very distracted and thinking about whatever. And then I'm like, wait, what are we doing? And then look in and trying to see, listen to the teacher.
So I'm like lost and not in my end, like lost in my head. Therefore it wasn't until I started to really, have to memorize it and take personal accountability for the sequence that really something clicked like, Oh, this is different.
Yeah. I agree. The light bulb keeps going off, right? Like you probably had a light bulb moment this morning already. Wonderful. So when we look at asanas and the physical aspect of yoga, what's your experience and what are your insight on how that supports emotional release?
Emotional release. And I guess I would define that as. A moment where your emotions can release. So it's probably very self evident what that actually means. If I'm really tense and nervous and anxious. And [00:26:00] I would call those like symptoms of emotion, or we could call that an emotion.
I guess if we think of anxiety, is that an emotion? What would you say that's an emotion? I guess so, right? It almost seems like this phantom of emotion, right? Because if you're really, agitated and maybe feel like, okay, I'm getting lots of conflicting information and that creates this ungrounding sensation.
And then probably would say that there comes anxiety, like this, like panic. Emotional release, I just want to get clear as to what I'm about, what I'm trying to get at here. But I think like emotional release is like when we're able one way I'd say emotional release is if I cry.
That's an emotional release, right? And then, or I might just feel joy. I might feel like an overwhelming sense of happiness and joy in the moment. And you just like, where'd that come from? And I feel like these emotions do release. So then a physical yoga asana, You probably have heard of or read the book, The Body [00:27:00] Keeps the Score, by Vessel Vanderkolk.
Vanderkolk, thank you. And, one amazing book. And, scientific research around studying how our bodies do hold on to trauma, stress, emotion. and he's such a huge fan, myself included, of somatic practices. And so that's where I think we then bring in an asana. Because when we're taking an asana, we're putting our body into a specific alignment or shape.
And consciously holding that position when we're like walking through the grocery store and shopping, we're usually not thinking about what shape our body is in when we go to reach for the can of beans, like we might, because I believe every single physical position becomes a yoga asana when our mind and breath is fully embodied in what we're actually doing.
I believe, that's where that shift can occur because first we see a picture or we see somebody in the [00:28:00] room making some sort of shape with their body and we try to copy. And I think it's that copying process of imitation that we start to feel our bodies and even become aware of like shoulder, arm up, rotation, bending, and that awareness process that occurs when we start to organize our bodies.
I think that is when then we tap in more to the subconscious, hence the emotional release. So I believe probably emotional release occurs due to this kind of tapping into subconscious mind. I think it's got this spatial component where if we think about the analogy in relation to a laser beam and then like a flashlight that can have a really wide beam.
And when we're in meditation, we can take our attention and we can have our eyes closed and we can put all of our attention right on our tip of our nose. And we can like really feel the nerves on the tip of our nose. And then [00:29:00] we can take our awareness like a flashlight and feel our whole body all at the same time.
We can feel our nose, we can feel our fingers and we can feel our toes all at the same time. I think that when we're doing yoga asana, we're starting to access both right and left brain.
We're pinpointing in on okay, where is my shoulder? And at the same time, we can have an awareness of wow, my whole body's expanding right now. I can feel every part of it opening up and stretching. And I think something about that right left brain thing that happens when we do that in a yoga pose puts us more into the subconscious state of mind.
Then what we do with that is another big question. Do you let it actually happen? Do you hide it? I think the majority of the. Study and understanding now in our practices is that, yeah, feel it, experience it, let it be like, let it actually happen.
So if you're crying or laughing, there's an element to where. of Syrian seriousness in the Ashtanga room, [00:30:00] where one thing I encountered with the intensity of the seriousness of a Mysore India practice being in that group in India is that when that sort of stuff would come up, we would still take our Drishti, our focus and almost not look at it.
I don't know if that was a healthy thing or not.
to hide from it. And that's where the stuff is so fascinating because just cause we embark on a yoga journey just doesn't mean that will be the answer right away. but it definitely helps and we have to start somewhere. I think it gets a little more complicated for those of us that have been
jolted, into challenging experiences. Yeah, it's such a good question because if we dig in on the whole emotional release and the purpose of yoga, I want to feel when it comes up, I want to sense it, but I'm not really wanting to cry uncontrollably in the room in front of all my students.
You know what I mean? I still have this reserve where I'm [00:31:00] like, I can cry or I can feel emotion, but I'm going to do it in a way where I keep it somewhat subdued and that's an interesting thing too, when we take on the role of being the teacher, sometimes people have come up to me and say, I'll be like, Oh man, my knee is so sore today.
And I'm like, wait, you're the yoga teacher. How could your knee be sore? Only taking on the role of being yoga teacher meant all pain would leave your body. I wish it was that simple, right? But sometimes people have this idea that we master it and I I'm getting to this point where, okay, maybe there's a yoga master out there, maybe.
But I honestly don't really believe at this point in my life. I'm like, I don't really think any of us actually master it. I think all we're doing is just practicing. I think even the master that appears to be masterful is still practicing.
I think, the process of still being teacher and still letting the yoga [00:32:00] work in our lives. I've noticed in my own journey where I've pushed harder with people and it was maybe because I wasn't really paying attention what I was going through.
And so it's, such a beautiful, delicate, fine balance. It's amazing. I'm just so intrigued by it and thralled by it. It's still every day gets me like going, wow, this is such an incredible opportunity because I have so much work to do. I feel like I do, but at the same time, I can still facilitate with others.
To me that's a part of how I think being engaged with asana, with groups, but also in a group setting is really the meeting place. Like without a doubt, because you know what? It's like when you try to, I don't know if you've ever tried to hit law. I'm going to do a Pranayama class.
Like it's hard to get people to get excited about coming in and breathing together. But when you say Asana and exercise, it's a. bigger magnet [00:33:00] pool, come, we're going to exercise this yoga and people are like, cool, it's going to be amazing. We're going to have fun. So I think the meeting place.
I know a lot of people, like they start getting more advanced at yoga and want to put down the Oh, I'm above the asana part now, but I really think asana is such an important. Even if we do evolve a little bit away from it, you can still have a yoga practice through your philosophical study, your meditation and your breathing practices.
So I do believe if we can start to migrate. always have huge respect for asana and what it can do for emotional release. Wonderful. Yeah. I agree with everything that you've said. I think it's a beautiful, you can look at it from the outer external physical world and then the more internal world, because just at a physical level, when we're stressed, we hold our shoulders up, pull tension or we clench our jaw.
I know I get TMJ where I just clench and [00:34:00] other, like women, they can cock a hip all the time and that can. throw you off alignment and cause, pain. But so much like our emotions that we don't process, it is my belief in my experience that we do hold on to it in our bodies, right?
Just like you mentioned the book, the body keeps the score. And so how often are we In this, space where we can connect to our body and move and open and breathe. And then all of a sudden we notice this little tweak in our shoulder, wow, have I been holding tension there, and getting this little realization like, yeah, I guess I've been a little stressed out, and then there's been so many times in Shavasana where, I get this wave of emotion that comes up and I get tears running down my eyes and sometimes I'll get angry, like really angry.
And it really allows me to okay, what am I so upset about? Why am I angry right now? And it really gets me to get curious and dig deeper and really [00:35:00] investigate, so I'm so grateful for the yoga practice. Cause it really does help me to learn about my internal landscape so much in a much richer way,
yes. Said. So thank you for sharing that. when we talk about,
so a lot of trauma survivors unfortunately experience dissociation from their body. Unfortunately they had this experience that the safest thing for them in that moment was for their brain to just check out. And a lot of times it can be really difficult to get back into the body, especially if there's been, physical abuse or sexual abuse coming back to the body can be very difficult.
dangerous or feel dangerous and scary. And, I just, I wonder like, how does the daily practice, really help someone reconnect to their bodies in a safe and empowering way? I'm glad you brought that up because I remember [00:36:00] when I was a kid, having my folks say, Todd, you're disassociating again, and, it would bug me.
It frustrated me that there was something that I was doing that I was not even aware that I was doing. And at the same time, it felt safer to do it. And so I really struggled with people bringing it to my attention. And so it was good that they did because I then could become aware that I was doing it.
So when I think about if someone is feeling that way, how would I approach, and what part or aspect of yoga practice would be A good way to start to coach the [00:37:00] disassociation towards staying embodied, keeping the mind and the body together. one thing I've always found fascinating about the yoga world is that there are, there's a style of yoga that'll fit every single person's personality.
We have Hatha Yoga, which we're familiar with, because Ashtanga Yoga can fall both under the umbrella of Hatha Yoga, but then even another umbrella called Tantra Yoga. And then we have, Bhakti Yoga, which can involve, chanting, devotional singing, or just having prayer toward a higher power.
We can have Raja Yoga, which is predominantly focused on stabilization of the mind and meditation and we have Jnana Yoga, which they'll say is the hardest one because it requires discernment and the ability to watch the mind and investigate through questioning to [00:38:00] see if You're actually clear about what you're thinking.
There might be someone, a style that's really good for someone very intellectual. There might be someone who's really more emotive, like Bhakti yoga, more emotional, or like to express emotion. And then for the physical culturist or the person that's really into physical fitness and the body feeling the Hatha yoga might be amazing.
I think the best thing to do is just start with one. And know that it is a huge field with lots of different avenues and ways to heal, ways to stop or lessen disassociation until you get it under control. And a lot of people will come and take a yoga class. And now I tell them when they're brand new, like I feel extremely honored when somebody walks in and I ask them, I ask everybody that comes in for the [00:39:00] first time, have you ever practiced yoga before?
And usually it's a yes nowadays. Cause yoga is pretty popular and it's been around for a really long time, but it's very accessible these days, especially between all the digital media that's out there, YouTube, all that. So when someone says no, I get this feeling of wow, I'm going to be the introduction to the world of yoga for this person, this class will be their first experience.
I actually will tell them, for better, for worse. I'm so excited you're here. And after the class, I usually don't say this right away because it's good, scare him off, but afterward I'll say, look, I'm so excited you came, how do you feel? If in any way you didn't really enjoy this, you didn't feel like this was like your, what resonates with you.
I just want to let you know, there's so many different styles. Don't give up and try looking around a little bit more. There's so many different ways you can integrate with this practices. Don't let this experience have you not want to practice [00:40:00] yoga I'll pick and choose whether it seems appropriate to say that to that individual or not based on the feeling I'm getting off of them.
But I think it's important for people to understand that if this doesn't work for you, there is something in here that will. And, so all right, and then back to dissociation in terms of the actual logistics of it, we want to escape. And this obviously when you mentioned trauma, healing and also addiction, one of the main ways to escape is through some sort of substance like that.
Usually seems like it's possible from my experience. You don't really escape anything. It just makes life way worse, right? You're still there with all your thoughts in your mind. You feel worse now because you're got this crazy substance inside of you that's messing with your system. So it's a false sense of security, obviously.
And we got to come up with a way to feel a sense of security. We've got to figure out a way. So then, again, the somatic practices, I was recently speaking with someone that worked with people that were in jail and he was teaching a stronger yoga with [00:41:00] people that were been incarcerated.
I thought, wow, when that seemed like a good thing to do, if you're in a jail cell, you could bust out some serious vinyasas and get some pushups and you're getting your body, you're feeling like you're getting your, everything toned up and give you something to do and you can be productive.
And his response is that he found a lot of the people just wanted to lay down and just breathe and have not a lot of pressure on them to perform. I think it's really important as those of us that are integrating as facilitators, coaches, and teachers to really be patient with the process of discovering what is going to help this person the best.
And, I'm a fan personally because I've really enjoy yoga. I've investigated pranayama and chanting mantra and kirtan and. Sanskrit slokas and getting into meditation. I've gone and practiced Vipassana meditation retreats [00:42:00] and I studied with the Self Realization Fellowship in the realm of meditation and trying to get a broad experience, of all the different aspects of yoga.
So that as a teacher and a facilitator, if I recognize that somebody is having problems with association and the physical asana practice is just a little too demanding and sometimes it actually can be too intense. We have tools that will help. So to polish that answer to your question up, I would say, pick something, just get started.
Trust. You're going to get better. You're going to want to stay in your body more. You're going to feel better when you do it. You gotta be in here for the long haul. This is a journey. This is an amazing journey. And it's gonna be years and years and years.
And to be open to try new things. And when something's not working, let's [00:43:00] try something else. Let's go surfing. Let's get out in the ocean. Let's go skiing or get out into the trees Hiking just get outdoors.
So yeah, movement definitely Forward mode forward movement. What's really cool about astanga is like we're on our mats almost like our yoga mats a treadmill Because like you're traveling forward, but you're not really going anywhere whereas walking definitely for me is a huge one, just walking, getting out, walking, smelling, seeing, tasting, breathing, seeing, feeling, sun, cloud, rain, wind, whatever, is a huge way to get, I feel like body back and mind and body back connected again.
What are your thoughts? Have you, I think that's this association, not, I want to say suffered because it's funny because this association actually is very relieving, Oh, I can just space out. It's a beautiful coping mechanism that the brain has created, right? For us to stay safe.
But it can also [00:44:00] happen in our lives when it's not serving us or when it actually can hinder our ability to be effective, especially in relationships. That's when it really affects me, if I disassociate, and I'm with my partner, that can cause some problems because he's What is going on?
And I'm not understanding this behavior, luckily, we have good communication and we've really worked to, speak on these things when they come up. So Mandy, have you met anybody that has undergone severe trauma that never disassociates?
ever again, or do you feel like it's a little more gray there? That it's a gray zone for sure. If someone experienced extreme disassociation as a child, moving into adulthood, it can be very easy to slip into it. I think the more you had that experience, the easier it is to go back there.
But just like a yoga [00:45:00] practice or learning a new skill. The more we practice these behaviors that help to keep us grounded and in our bodies, the more we can stay away from slipping into that disassociated state. I do know that, and this isn't for everyone, I personally am not a big fan of doing ice baths for me personally.
It's a little too disruptive to my nervous system. I know that for some, it's a very beautiful technique to help to regulate their immune or their nervous system because it engages the parasympathetic nervous system, right? That's the whole intention of it. And I have a good friend that uses ice baths as a way to help her with that.
specifically with disassociation from her body. And for her, it works beautifully. Like I say, do it with caution. for me, it's a little too much and it's a little bit too triggering
the part of that's really important about [00:46:00] healing from trauma is being able to make choices for ourselves. And so that's a choice we get to make. for me, yoga has been the safest way. to come back to my body. I used to go to a hot room, but I would leave really angry and I didn't figure it out for a long time.
I realized like I'm a pizza in the, Ayurvedic, practice, right? I'm a fire already. adding external heat just really fired me up and I would get super angry for hours afterwards. It took me a long time to figure out like, wow, that's just too much heat, too much tapas.
And for me, building my own internal heat was much more transformative, than being in. A hot yoga room where the heat was external. But yeah, so I think when it comes to reconnecting to the body, like the reason I asked that question is because for me, it's been my experience that yoga has been the safest way to do that.
that's why I ask, I want to hear what other people have to say about the matter. Thank [00:47:00] you for being willing to chat. So okay, moving on. So when we talk about, looking at Ashtanga Yoga and addiction recovery, are there any stories that you could share or insights on, how this practice has supported individuals in their recovery?
Yeah. Absolutely.
I think, we've seen A lot of people over the years in our own practice, not only just in our studio, but studying and practicing abroad that yoga seems to be a excellent avenue for people that are in recovery. So I have worked with lots of people and I'm around a lot of people that are in recovery.
I've learned a lot from hearing through their experiences. And, so yeah, [00:48:00] what seems to happen with addiction is we'll trade one for another and it seems like we'll find something else to replace the other one with and then we'll just become as obsessive with the new thing.
Now at least with yoga, it is a healthier way to express our addictive personality. At the same time. I have seen a lot of misuse. When I first came across yoga, I had this idea of wow, maybe a little rose colored glasses scenario of cool.
There's this ancient thousands of year old tradition that is leading people toward enlightenment. So cool. That sounds good. I want some of that. And it can't do me any harm and it only is going to help. And I think that's really true, especially upon [00:49:00] discovery and upon initiation or upon embarking on a yoga journey.
But working through some of this stuff is very, it's deep. So it takes time and it's a process. And so I think if the qualities, the nature of the addictive personality gets a little out of control, yoga itself can be dangerous. For example, eating disorder issues, I've seen, people disguise their Eating disorder as a yogic discipline.
There's, an obsessiveness in the Ashtanga world okay, don't practice on the new or the full moon. And I've seen, people take that to a level of like they won't travel or if they're going from A to B They're only gonna travel on the moon day because they won't be able to practice that day and that way they'll be able to get their other six days a weekend and it gets so Regimented and so [00:50:00] intense.
It doesn't feel super healthy to me when it gets that crazy. So I've gone there myself with it. I've gone there myself with the whole diet thing. The whole, all the different aspects that yoga sometimes will encourage us toward. I think it requires an incredible level of discernment. I think that as we continue on, we just have to be really aware of am I treating this like the way I treated other things in my life?
to just build in the space that part of the recovery process is to love ourselves and to just give ourselves a little bit of space. Yeah, I have witnessed a lot and I think that it's really the best, probably one of the greatest tools out there. I would think everybody who's struggling like this, Should get into yoga.
I just feel that way because it's such a powerful tool. So even if there's like we're all [00:51:00] gonna trip along the way, great. No worries, of course definitely take the yoga and trade out the other a hundred percent, but then keep that discernment up.
So I'm aware of what I'm doing and, keep on trucking along, yeah. That's wonderful observations because it's true. Just turn our addictive behaviors right over to the yogic practice, right? Yeah. So it's something to be very mindful of and to try to keep a very.
Keen discernment to keep that balance for sure. A lot of times when someone is suffering from addiction, it's because there's a lot of internal pain that they're trying to avoid or, not deal with. So how does the inward focus that Ashtanga teaches us, how does that really shift the mindset or what's your experience been with that?
Yeah, that's cool because let's take a pose, we'll pick a pose, let's pick Murciasana D. For those of you that don't know what Murciasana D is, it's a very difficult [00:52:00] pose in the primary series. That requires taking one leg, putting a foot and a half Lotus position, bending the other leg up so that you're compressed like a ball, and then taking an arm and twisting and wrapping it around the leg and catching the hand behind the back, and then trying to breathe five full breaths while you have your diaphragm completely constricted.
Your knees are being squeezed to the Nth degree. And it's a wonderful description. And the pose in and of itself. Creates the situation that's indicative of when I'm uncomfortable in my body anyway, and what do I want to do? I want to find something to take that pain away. And I think what starts happening when we start practicing yoga, and characteristically ashtanga yoga, in my opinion, Ashtanga stands in its own little world in the sense of it has an intensity that will put you into those [00:53:00] uncomfortable positions for only five breaths though.
That's one thing I think is really cool. Only for five not for eternity and you start to learn how to breathe in the uncomfortable situation If you're with a really good teacher, they will help you They can't guarantee anything because our own egos are so crazy and wild that like how can a teacher take, responsibility for my madness, but if I get into that position just enough, just enough where you're like, Whoa, this is really intense.
And you start focusing in on how to deal with the suffering basically. And then you come out of the pose and you go, whew, that's over. I made it. I was able to breathe through it. And I pulled it off. Oh my gosh. That's so cool. What's next?
And hold it and lift in between and make your ab muscles squeeze like crazy. Uncomfortable. And you're like, I can't do it. And your body starts trembling and you're sweating and you're shaking. And so [00:54:00] really I'm uncomfortable. And the mind is going, why are you doing this?
Now, from an addiction perspective, when we're in a lot of pain and our mind starts going, you can just take something, just use this right? so it's training the mind to know this is only temporary. This is not forever. And, it's so funny, I took my son, getting ready to go to college, up to University of Central Florida in Orlando, he likes to surf, so there's a surf town east of that called New Smyrna Beach, and it's considered the best part in Florida for surf.
I saw this truck and on the back someone had taken looked like nail polish or something Maybe chalk and it said, pain is not forever. And it was like, oh my gosh Who's driving around with this on the back of their truck?
Pain doesn't last forever and I'm like, hey man, you're right. It does not last forever. It's scary because we just get so freaked out and think we have to do something to get rid of this pain. But when you start going into the pain, and I know this is a [00:55:00] delicate thing to do. this is why I think having a teacher is good.
Your students are so lucky because you have the double-edged side. You got the yoga side you love, but you also understand there's a finesse to this. There's a process going on here. And so when you have a good teacher that can help coach you along, you go, oh really?
You want me to sit with this? I can actually sit with this and I'm not gonna die. And so it's a really, I think that is part of the crux of how it can help us then when we go out with our friends and we're tempted to go back to our old patterns or whatever, that we can say, no, actually, I'm going to just take a couple of breaths right now.
Feeling some pain, I'm agitated, whatever. Let me just practice my yoga literally right now while I'm hanging out with these folks where I'm at, okay, feel it. What is that feeling coming up right now? Oh my God, I feel so uncomfortable. I feel so uncomfortable.
You know what I mean? Feel it. Start breathing. Take five breaths. This is your yoga. This is your Mrityasana [00:56:00] D. And so I think that for me, that's been like, Oh, okay, now I get it. Now it's making sense. Yeah, this is making sense, right?
I could do yoga. I'll do both. There's a reason we're doing it. It's not just some crazy thing we decided to do. there's a real deep reason behind why we're doing our practice.
Absolutely. In the beginning of my practice, my mantra was, I can do anything for five breaths. I was like, five breaths, I can do anything for five breaths, right? So just sitting in the discomfort not in the pain, but obviously, we don't want pain in yoga, we want just, discomfort, like when it comes to body sensations, being able to breathe through it, just like you said, breathe through that uncomfortable feeling and then, eventually it will pass, I think that's great.
Another thing, Mandy, that I found extremely helpful as an adjunct practice to Ashtanga yoga has been, Vipassana meditation, and there's a lot of different schools [00:57:00] out there and it's intense. It's on par in my opinion with Go in India and practicing in miso, fricking intense. But you go and you sit for 10 hours and 45 minutes a day on a cushion in silence for 10 days straight.
And wow. Oh my gosh. So intense. Way more than anything I ever, and I thought, oh, I'm a yogi. This is going to be a piece of cake. I got this. I've been to India, all these kinds of things that we do in our heads where we think we're so cool and, oh, so humbling. So humbling.
And the funny thing is you pick one pose. Now we're not taking a whole bunch of different poses. It's one pose and it's not just five minutes. It's all day long. really intense. You'll have these crazy pain sensations. And you think, Oh my God, am I going to die?
Is my hip going to fall off? Am I going to break? What's going on? You get up, you stand up, you walk out. You're totally fine. The pain's gone. You get back in, you sit down about [00:58:00] 30 minutes in. It feels like someone's got a knife in my hip.
What's going on with this? I got to get up. You get up, you walk. What is this? What is this whole sensation thing? And the mind and the way we get so caught up in the attachment to taking it personal I think for me, that was a big one when I started getting that sort of glimpse that like. Oh my gosh, all this pain and suffering.
I was taking it personal like it was me. It's not me. It's the human condition. As a human being, you were gonna suffer. It's just the name of the game. It's okay. It's not a personal thing. It's not that I'm doing bad. I deserve it. I did bad karma. I did. There's so many crazy, interesting philosophies too, that will traverse when we get into yoga that like, what am I, what did I do in a past life to deserve this?
Is there anything else you want to expand on?
At some point or another, definitely embark [00:59:00] on doing specific pranayama practice and just wait till it calls you, there'll be a moment where it'll be like I'm curious, what is that? And then go for it. You hear all the stories about, you need to have your nervous system purified enough so that you don't blast through any circuits.
When you start doing deep, intense pranayama. It's really important to get the ground.
I think that's really beautiful advice because it's so true. The breathing practices can bring up a lot of stuff and if you're not ready for it or if you're not in an environment that can contain you in a safe space, then it definitely can feel overwhelming.
thank you. I hope everyone that was watching and listening got value.
